99 replies to this topic

[Go Native]

You know that the group involved in that slide are all experienced and have all the gear including avalungs. You also know they hiked a bit to access an area that few others would have on that day because of top gate closures. The average person coming over here is very unlikely to put themselves into that position. I've never claimed it's completely risk free. But how many years with no deaths does it take before you can say it's relatively pretty damned safe? It's as though you believe even one death is totally unacceptable ever. I agree that odds are on that one day some time in the future in all likelihood there will be another avi death here. Those involved may or may not be carrying gear. I just don't understand the seemingly overwhelming concern that this may occur.
I mean supposedly something like 16,000 children die needlessly from hunger related illnesses alone every single day. That's every single day! We haven't had one avi death here in something like 10 or more years and you're really concerned about people skiing out of gates without avi gear? As I say I just don't get it. People die all the time and often from the most ridiculous things. Why so much concern about someone possibly dying in an avalanche one day on a little hill in northern Japan?
Me I'm just happy for people to come here and have what I know for many is one of the best skiing experiences of their entire lives. If we were to lose one or two people every 10-15 years I don't think that's too high a price at all for the possibility of having such an experience like that. I know they can still have that experience with avi gear but based on the incredible record of safety here I don't see the 'need' to have it. Statistically I'd say I take a far greater risk to my life each day by driving to and from work on icy roads than I do skiing out through the gates here without avi gear.

[MitchPee]

Just some food for thought: today my roommate got caught up in an avalanche about 3-4 feet deep and 200 feet wide. He was carried quite a ways and went under several times, but luckily came out on top. Very scary thing to have happen and he is very very luckily to only have dislocated both of his shoulders. Could have easily taken a turn for the worst.

This is a bowl that generally is notorious for sliding but the avy reports were all at low-moderate today. Just goes to show you that you never know and they certainly didn't expect this slide.

[Go Native]

Heaps and heaps of people have died from avi's this season in the Alps, as they do most years and I'm sure plenty more in the US and Canada. So far another year going by without one at Niseko. MitchPee I'm not some crazy risk taker, hell I have a young child but frankly the avi risks and stories from overseas don't really make this place any more dangerous or the risk here any more probable. Tell me is there one resort in your region that has not had even one avi death in the last 10 years from people skiing out of bounds or off piste? If there was such a place wouldn't you consider it on the whole pretty incredibly safe?

[MitchPee]

I hear ya GN. I didn't make that post to direct it at you or belittle you by inferring you had no avi knowledge. I know you have expertise on the area, but all I wanted to get through on that post was that I almost lost a friend last week in a supposedly "safe" slackcountry area. Just something I think everyone should have in the back of their mind.

[Jynxx]

It may be argued that less people ski off piste in Japan compared to USA, Europe. The resort is taking measures to discourage it, self regulate it, and somehow successful and people (Japanese) are convinced in that. And that most people think it is dangerous to do that. Pity about that - when someone who doesn't take care, who isn't experienced, goes for it and shit happens, the negative impact can put people off from a great experience. So in some sports you don't hear about the danger. Like tandem skydiving. People want to think it is aafe because you are doing it with a professional. The only thing that is professional about it is making sure they are not liable for the cock up which you will die.
So i don't think you can say statistically one is a safe resort. It can come out more of a shock when someone dies in the slack area or on piste just because people expect to be "bullet proof" safe there. Even if this happens once in 20 years it doesn't matter. I just think it is better to understand that skiing and snowboarding is like risk associated with motorbike riding. One can keep the risk factor under some self controll however there are unknown factors.
I really don't think there are any safe resorts. In Austria, one is expected to know what you are doing on the mountain. There are less signs about danger, roped off areas. The North Americans will definitely consider this as a liability.
There are differences so we can't compare. The snow is different, the mountain, the people ... we just do what we think is better.

[Go Native]

Jynxx I doubt the dream run of no deaths here will last forever. The number of people skiing out through the gates at Niseko is huge now and has been for many years. Statistically it is almost certain another avi death will eventually happen. I guess the question is how much do you value that potential loss of life? Say compared to how much of Niseko's success is based on the liberal off-piste and slackcountry access? Does the potential of loss of life, even though the risk is very low when compared to nearly any other ski area on the planet, outweigh all other considerations? It doesn't for me...

[Jynxx]

I agree with you that I want to have my fun. And if I want to take my chance even when the survival rate is low that is my business.

I do think that at the times the we live now, we need to watch our back and others.
That means in some places like USA, it comes out as managing liability claims. - has there been warnings, information, training opportunities available and the participant sign the waiver.
In Australia, taking nanny state measures.
In Japan, making sure there is a official local policy.
When there is a loss of life, to the people whom care most, it is a valueless loss. They want explanation and accountability.
For others, they want to know what went wrong so they can learn from it and avoid further similar incidents.
It is understandable that commercial interests should not outweigh compromise in personal safety. Nor, exercising personal freedom result in a loss of life someone else. Have that person acted in a responsible manner to ensure other's safety. This is were the "Responsable" word comes in. It is not within one's right to be irresponsible in this manner.

[Go Native]

I agree with everything you've said there Jynxx. I just know that there are quite a few people here who would love to see stricter controls for those going through gates at the resort. This push is not from resort management and as far as I'm concerned totally disregards the excellent safety record of the current system. I'm sure when an avi death does eventually happen here again we'll see these people stridently calling for stricter controls to be enforced. As I've said before if avi deaths were occurring here every season like they do in many resorts in the Alps, US or Canada believe me I'd probably fully support stricter controls on access but they don't. I could be wrong (correct me if I am) but I think the last avi death here was back in '98 and occurred in an area that now is banned from any access. The current system of access seems to work extremely well and reasonably safely. Can there really be an argument made to make it safer? How safe can it really get?

[Mamabear]

I really like the way Niseko manages these risks...

I think that the area is conducive to progressive advancement, and provides excellent instructors who are capable of equipping people to manage in these off piste area's. The majority of people are not heading through the gates until they feel 'ready' after learning to choose their lines and assess the terrain inbounds. There is so much choice for intermediates inbounds as to not feel they need to be in a hurry to step out.

There are also levels of difficulty within those gates, some much more of a challenge than others - so people can gradually progress from the easiest of the gated area's to more difficult area's - learning as they go.

For the majority of people if there is an off piste fun experience located just to the left or right of a groomed run, with very little slide danger attached they are going to hit that over and over rather than hike to a riskier locale to get something a little more hardcore. The gate system in Niseko probably keeps the majority of skiers and boarders out of the danger area's by simply making the less risky but fun area's easily accessible.

A lot better system than an all or none ... where you are either on a groomed trail or you are 'ducking ropes'.

[Schneebored]

Reading this thread was probably the best use of my work time in months.

props to you all for sharing knowledge and stories!

Can anyone recommend a good text book about snow pack and the mechanics of avalanches? (I like to get nerdy)

Cheers

[TubbyBeaverinho]

don7t worry about that, if you go to Niseko just read the daily avi risk thats posted at each gate...its in english too

[SJ-David]

It's also posted on our Niseko Now daily reports:

http://www.snowjapan.com/e/daily/niseko-now.php

You can see the archives from the past season from above.

[Mamabear]

Best thing I ever did each morning was to read the Niseko Now reports with a nice hot coffee before heading out to explore. Take a little laptop or iPhone and you are all set (oh and don't forget to look out the window too )

[Creek Boy]

Originally Posted By: Schneebored

Reading this thread was probably the best use of my work time in months.

props to you all for sharing knowledge and stories!

Can anyone recommend a good text book about snow pack and the mechanics of avalanches? (I like to get nerdy)

Cheers

Id start with The Avalanche Handbook and Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain for starters - doing a class is essential, and practice what you learn. It means nothing if you dont know your beacon and dont practice with it.

[Jynxx]

I think it would be great if they have a dedicated area to practice with beacons. It would be entertaining for the kids, too. Start them early with Avi education. A info centre attatched to it.
Major companies like Pieps might sponcer it ...

[Go Native]

I prefer to let nature take it's course and for the idiots to die in an ice coccoon of their own making! Sure some innocents may be taken out as well but that's the price you have to pay to be rid of the idiots!

[MitchPee]

Originally Posted By: Go Native

I prefer to let nature take it's course and for the idiots to die in an ice coccoon of their own making! Sure some innocents may be taken out as well but that's the price you have to pay to be rid of the idiots!

GN's real name means Good Natured DARWIN hahahhaa

[Jynxx]

I used to all him Gringo Nutcase
but he's good value that's for sure

[Schneebored]

Originally Posted By: Creek Boy

Id start with The Avalanche Handbook and Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain for starters

Just done a little Amazon shop and brought the following;

- The Avalanche Handbook: Looks good for general reading.
- Avalanche Dynamics: Heavier text, goes deeper into the mechanics, chemistry and math.

Will post comments/opinions when i receive them.

Originally Posted By: Creek Boy

doing a class is essential, and practice what you learn. It means nothing if you dont know your beacon and dont practice with it.

Couldnt agree more. Done a couple of classes now, and frequently play beacon hide and seek with the lady.

[Tex]

Originally Posted By: Schneebored

Will post comments/opinions when i receive them.

Save yourself the typing just post them to me