thought this was interesting on todays japan times:

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/401881

Well done lads!

good job

These guys really did a great job.

nice link SC. Some good photos too. Is that where you live?

Tubby, I wished I lived there. I live in Tokyo but I have been to Hakkoda before riding with Simon. Georgeous place, recommended!

Reading something like that always makes me wonder, especially being in Niseko, what will happen when this happens around here. Who knows what really happened before the aussie's got there but they did a fantastic job.

Yesterday, whilst riding in Hanazono for a few quick runs before work, I watched in amazement as scores of people ducked ropes and traversed across the face above Hanazono, all trying to get some fresh pow, 3 days after rain and 45cm of fresh snow on top. Something tragic will happen here sooner or later but there won't be enough experienced people around to help.

Very few people ride with gear and although not steep in many places, avalanches happen on 30 degree pistes all the time, especially when conditions aren't ideal.

For those who don't know what they are doing, please don't endanger others by riding above people on open faces, make sure you are prepared if you are going into the back country or even ducking the ropes. You never know when it will be you having to dig people out.

Regarding the Hakkoda accident, there is now a rumour making the rounds in the Japanese BC circles. I do not want to say anything here since, as far as I know, there is no definite conclusion as to what triggered that slide.

As for Niseko, the fact that it is mostly low angle does not mean it will not slide as you rightly pointed out. 25 degree slopes can slides with the right conditions.

Somebody riding purposefully above you in the BC is guilty of attempted manslaughter and should be dealt with accordingly.

m8, I am sure that you recognize that the Hakkoda accident is a pretty sensitive issue for many people. I don't think it is a wise strategy to post in a public forum that there is a rumor unless you are willing to share it.

actually I do not think the accident was sensitive. It was a tragedy like many other avalanche accidents (and I am not saying that I do not feel sorry for what happened to these peeps, on the contrary). The reason I am mentionning it is 'cos I am wondering whether anybody has heard anything similar, but it seems not since there were no reactions. If not then it is better to leave it at that otherwise I am myself purporting something that is probably innacurate. It is a fine line to walk. We can talk about it next time I see you.

Reading this worries me!
We are 2 days out of Niseko - currently in Tokyo - and I have been checking the Avie reports every day for the past couple of weeks. I have no intention of heading BC - I will be Piste Running and chasing the kids down to keep them in sight. But I think it is vital that everyone on (or around) the snow is aware of the current conditions. We are travelling with friends who may chose to duck ropes and do some hiking into the BC - and *I* will definately have the info at the ready for them.

I have scored a great backpack with shovel and probe pockets and I am almost tempted to buy these items and carry them - except I am just likely to fall on them and hurt myself!! LOL Why people who are ACTUALLY taking these risks are not going out there prepared is just beyond me!!!

Mamabear, I would recommend you get an introduction to the BC by a friend who has some experience or a guide so that either of them can explain to you the ins an out. It may seem a bit daunting or dangerous but if you go with the right people and the right equipment it is relatively safe and enjoyable (although there is never zero risk). You can start very easy and learn slowly. Being aware of the weather conditions is always important as well.

I think in Niseko you probably have more risk falling into a creek in early season or hitting a tree.

A friend just came back from Niseko and told me it was all tracked out by 10am.

Mamabear, just buying the stuff won't help. It will get you into trouble if you think that stuff is intuitive enough to use. You need BC safety training before you even think of buying that stuff.

With so many kids, you need to be safety trained for them as well.

a course rider does not need gear

May beg to differ on this FT. There have been several inbounds avis back in the states this year. one a few days ago at Squaw. While FT is right. 99.9% of the time you don't need it may come in handy if your caught in it or may be able to lend a hand to patrolers.

so you're differing for 0.01%? (I'd even say the odds of an inbounds avy are less than that)

depends where you ski. So far this year I know of 3 different inbound avalanches. Ok so none are here in Japan. But inbounds avi do happen

are you kidding quattro? need gear to ride the courses?

if youre on a steep course (inbounds) that just got pounded by 2 feet of snow, then there is a good chance it could slide which is why resorts close off certain runs after huge dumps...or use avie control which Japan doesnt do too much of...

wattiewatson

I think your missing my point. There are ares that are inbounds that do slide. Even after patrol may have given it the go ahead. Or have some dipstick ride a closed run and send a bunch of snow down on people that may be below. If you are going to be on some green groomers most likely you don't need it. Living in Japan most ski areas you probably don't need to carry. But there are many other resorts in the world that having gear may not be a bad idea.


Beside it cant hurt to carry it. I generally have keep all my stuff in one pack and find it easy to just grab it. Servers two purpose's my gear is with me and two lesser of a deal it keeps me used to skiing with a loaded pack.
Do I always carry it no. Depends on were I'm skiing. Do all patrollers have avalanche training no.

quattro, you have got to work on that grammar, mate. That was painful.

As far as avi-gear is concerned for the inbounds stuff, I wouldn't sweat any groomers/courses virtually anywhere. (I'm a a certified Level 3 Avi cert from American Avalanche Institute.)

Off piste, however, in or out of bounds is completely different. I've ridden slides in-bounds. My work on Patrol taught me more about starting slides than anything. I can't even count (or estimate) how many slides I've started.

All of the recent inbounds slides making the news recently are offpiste, on big terrain. Even after the bombs and ski-cutting, there are always lingering slabs that could take out anyone and push them into a tree.

If you are willing to carry a shovel and a beacon, even if you are taking care of kids on greens, then I applaud you. If only that were standard... however, my training took years and heeps of cash. I don't expect the avaerage recreational skier to be willing to front that to go play in the snow.

either way, all snow slides. it's physics. (let me rephrase that- all snow IS SLIDING... right now.) Think silly putty. stretch it slowly, or break it by pulling it apart too quickly.

To tell you the truth, regardless of avie danger, I always carry my back pack with me. The balance on a snowboard is so much different without it, so like quatro, I have it on all the time with my shovel and some more staff in.

OK..just to be clear - at this point there is no out of bounds for me. I SAW snow for the first time in April - yes that is right APRIL 2007! I know ... total n00b!

However I am currently on my 4th snow trip in that time - and have had privates each time. I am geared up, and while old and unfit - ready to have a crack.

I have NEVER ridden with a back pack before - just me and my board. I added the helmet last trip - and as the only uninjured adult to make sure the kids don't let loose a flying snowboard, or end up in a tree well - I am thinking I might need to carry some Mummy equipment. (The stuff Daddy used to carry).

I have a slightly ADD/obsessive personality (be nice now) - so I have done masses of research on safety on snow, got a hold of research papers on injury rate in snowboarders v skiers (including other variables such as age/helmet use) etc etc. I have read the info, and watched the vid's on Avalanche safety. I haven't done a course yet - WOULD LOVE to though. Ohhh..and I am First Aid and rescue trained (for non-snow conditions).

I dont think I know everything - far from it. But I get really ticked when people take up new sports/interest/etc and launch in without even considering risk minimisation, whether that be for themselves or for those around them.

I wont be carrying Avie gear on piste. I have not bought any. But I have at least thought through what I would do, and how I could improvise if I were in the position to assist someone - be they my kid or someone else - be they immersed in a pile of POW, hit by an Avie or injured in a fall..

Way I see it - when you buy a lift pass as an adult you take on some level of responsibility for those around you.

FWIW mamabear, I think you're in the clear aside from "Huge" dumps.

being a nOOb with kids, I imagine you are far from getting hit. It's great that you're paying attention though. And- that is where the "Huge" dump factor comes in. Huge dumps have buried resort base areas. But even those resorts are at the bottom of huge faces.

Enjoy the winter, mamabear. Your kids are lucky to have you taking the precautions while introducing them to the glory of snow. These trees in japan are keeping you much safer than may be assumed.

Just a quick comment about the inbound slides. They DO happen but it would be more likely at a resort that has some steeps (not too many in Japan). Is 38 degrees the correct angle?

Also quatro mentioned a slide at Squaw Valley in Tahoe. Well, I used to ride at a nearby resort (Sierra at Tahoe). I checked the reports. They reported 93 inches in the last 7 days - that's over 200cm! Squaw's report was similar. Those are pretty unusual circumstances.

The inbounds slides are happening on a scary layer in the northwest snow pack.

Mamabear does not need to run out and gear up to protect her kids. A shovel alone wont do crap in a slide. youll need to spend 3000 bucks gearing the family up for something that wont happen. Stay on piste. Enter through gates if you are riding inbounds trees. If you follow those guidelines then dont worry. If you are hiking to a peak or cutting into no go terrain then you should be ready to save yourself.

The present NA snowpack is going to see many closed runs for a while. The Avies that happened, happened an hour or more after the areas were opened and had skier traffic. That type of instability is quite rare.

As far as I know there has never been an inbounds avie that has killed anyone in Niseko. And the only avvies that have caused deaths are in areas that are strictly off limits.
Mama unless you are climbing the peak and hitting some of the back bowls or Jacksons there is little chance of you coming into contact with an avvie. The bus ride from the airport was probably far more dangerous

Yeah yeah - I know that... my point is that as a newbie to the sport I am keen to make sure I know as much about safety as I need (and more)- that is the super responsible person in me.

Then there is the other me - the one that sent the kids home with Dad for a hot chocolate today and while everyone else ditched me for the comforts of a heater, convinced my 14 yr old to ride with me one more time. At the top of the lift we ditched each other and just went to POW heaven for a short while. One run - no kids - and pushing myself to my personal limits. Ohhh yeah..in bounds - but THAT is what *I* am talking about!

Mamabear you selfish B****, they would've all enjoyed that.

LOL.
What can I say... sometimes ya just gotta say nuffs e-nuff and do your own thing for a short time!

SerreChe

There's nothing secret about the rumour. It's covered in the book written by the widow of one of the people who died in the avalanche(雪煙 by こすが聖絵). The rumour is that Simon and his group may have inadvertently set off the avalanche that killed those two people.

The widow makes a point of saying that no one is ever going to know the truth for sure, and that assigning blame won't bring her husband back. The rumour has been going on since the day of the avalanche, but some of the locals don't feel quite as charitable as the widow, especially since three of the Japanese guides from that trip have just been hit with "professional negligence resulting in death or injury".

With the 1 year anniversary since the avalanche around the corner, the actions of all the players involved that day (and subsequently) have been speculated on, picked apart, and judgements passed by any number of locals here. The fact of the matter is that no one is ever going to know for sure what happened.

I know it's easy to take the high moral ground from the comfort of an armchair, but for me, this whole tragedy just keeps reminding me that you should never place blind trust in any guide. Learn what you need to to make your own decisions, and don't let your ego lead you to places that put you or those around you in the path of danger.

Yes I've heard the same story.
A distinct possibility, but impossible to verify and as stated it's not going to bring back anyone. Tragic all round.

About slides in-bounds. Was discussed on here a coupla years back when it happened BIG time at Mizuho in Shimane.

The whole of Big Morning intermediate(?) course (wide, long and max @ 20deg) cracked a metre deep at the top and slid 100's of metres.
No extreme conditions.
Incredibly lucky it wasn't a Sunday as everyone in Japan would have never forgotten the name if it was.

So the simple answer is any shit can happen anytime and don't get too smug about what you think you know.

But preparation is certainly the way to go. Got my earthquake survival pack by the door.

If Simons group did start the avalanche as rumoured, then why no one in Simons group didn't get caught?

And anyway, regardless of who started the avalanche, when you guide a group of people you have to make sure that you are not exposing them to danger not only when they are skiing down a slope but also when you are traversing an area with avalanche terrain hanging above you.

I went on a tour with the guides from Sukayu (the ones involved in this incident) I was afraid for my life to the extent that my wife and I took measures to try and provide for our own safety. We took turns going right to the front of the group (of about 30) and the other went right at the back to spot the person in front (as we were the only two with beacons). Once the first person got to the bottom they had to try and find a safe place to stop and wait (while trying not to get too far from the rest of the group who were parked right where any potential avalanche would end up) There were times though when we could not even provide for our own safety. i.e When the entire group was lead together onto a slope steep enough to avalanche. At that exposed moment the snowboard group led by other Sukayu guides who had snowshoed to the top of the slope we traversed onto, dropped in over a convex roll right above the 30 people parked in the middle of the slope. I just about shat myself.
Earlier when I was finding out if the guides had beacons on or not (as part of our self-rescue plan) the guide said that they did not have them. He said he thought they should have them but the boss thought that they didn’t need them because they only went out when it was safe. We left that day saying that people were going to die there - the very next year they did.

That they can have the nerve to try and blame this tragedy on anyone but themselves is shameful. I liked the guides, they were good guys and fun to hang out with and watch ski movies with but someone needs to get prosecuted to send some sort of message to the "guide" industry

It's not the guides who are assigning blame elsewhere. For that matter, the locals aren't really laying blame elsewhere per se. It's more that they question anyones wisdom in going out there that day. I'll be honest and say that I fall into that camp myself.

I remember that day very well because with the amount of fresh snow we had I had planned on taking the day off and going up to the mountain. When I looked at the weather forecast early that morning though, it was obvious that there was a very big and windy low pressure system that was going to sit over the Hakkoda range that day. The Hakkoda ropeway closes when wind speeds reach 25 metres per second (or about 90km per hour). I knew that this was going to happen by no later than mid-morning, so decided to just go to work instead.

At the time, I was working in the same building as the prefectural police headquarters, so when the police were notified it didn't take long to hear that there was something wrong up at Hakkoda. I was worried that people I knew might be up there so I was trying to find out as much as I could without getting in anyones way. That's when reports started coming through that foreigners were involved. I was also checking the Hakkoda ropeway website to see if they had any information. By this stage the wind speed was registering at 37m/second (about 133 km/hr).

What happened was a tragedy, but to this day I believe that every guide on the mountain that day bears responsibility for it. If they had taken a glance at the weather charts that day it would have been bleeding obvious that the weather was going to close in on them all, and badly. The alternative, that they didn't bother to look at, or didn't know how to read a weather map, pretty much by definition means they should have no right to guide anyone anywhere.

Skiing in poor visibility is part and parcel of skiing at Hakkoda. No one denies this, and anyone who has spent any amount of time on the mountain just learns to deal with it (or, indeed, revel in it). But it's one thing to know the terrain well, take responsibility for yourself and make judgement calls about what you as an individual are going to do. It's another thing when other people put their trust in you because they believe that you will make the right decisions for them and keep them out of harms way; when clients have limited knowledge of the terrain and/or experience in the prevailing conditions.

I firmly believe that hubris, and an understandable (but misguided) desire to satisfy customers who had booked out tours weeks in advance (on the part of all of the guides there that day) were what caused that accident. I've kept my mouth shut about this for the past year because I couldn't see the point of pointing fingers. But now every weekend I see skiers and boarders who are blissful in their ignorance piling out of the ropeway to follow their guide, like ducklings following their mother. I want to beg them to learn how to look after themselves rather than trusting that their guide has the know-how and judgement to keep them all safe.

I also believe that people should be willing to stand by the words that they write, even in an anonymous forum. If anyone wants to call me on it, feel free. I'm the gaijin girl telemarker in the orange jacket and grey helmet sitting with the old folk around the stove at the bottom of the ropeway.