Only if it is from an Ancient Technical College that you refuse to divulge on the basis that to do so would invoke a curse from the ancient ancestors of the Illuminati that would genetically alter your entire bloodline for eternity, causing delirium, madness and unfortunate posting.

A question to space frog. Do you believe that the records of events that occurred in the following are factual.
Princess Diane's death
Moon landing
JFK

This is probably the key to why you are the way you are Spacefrog. Being able to verify the credentials of someone who makes certain claims is just about, well...everything! You see in the world of real science, if a scientific paper is published the first thing other scientists will want to check on is if the paper was published in a credible publication. They do this because that publication will already have done some checks on the credentials of the writer of the paper and that basic scientific methodology has been applied. Then the paper will be reviewed by peers throughout the world and the methodology, results and conclusions rigorously scrutinized. After all this the scientific community will be able to make a very informed decision on whether the paper has made a contribution to our understanding of the world around us.

Knowing what degrees you supposedly have makes all the difference in the credibility of the arguments you bring to this forum on certain subjects. Previously you believed yourself to be somewhat an expert on human enhanced global warming and now you're an expert on structural engineering. And yet we still have no idea what scientific background you have that allows you to comment with such certainty on these subjects.

If you fail to see why your academic background has nothing to do with how we should view your comments on this forum then it explains perfectly to me how you allow yourself to be swayed by ridiculous crackpot conspiracy theories. Not understanding why your credentials are important means you don't understand why the credentials of those you get your information from are important. In the age of the internet just about anyone, anywhere can publish just about anything regardless of their qualifications in the field they publish on. Knowing the credentials of those that make comments is paramount. So if you want to be taken seriously at all please inform us of your academic credentials that allow you to comment with any authority on subjects like global climate change or planes crashing into buildings.

The moon landing, hello! Has to be true, you couldn't fake a thing like that!
JFK - it's as per the official version, Lee Harvey was framed.

Now Princess Di is the interesting one. It's amazing the the real truth hasn't been allowed to come out, but it's out there for those who are prepared to do a little research. You have to look in the right places though.

She's still alive of course.

Consider the position, you know for a fact that MI5 has been contracted to take you out, you're pregnant, Dodi is starting to press you for marriage and you are totally tired of the constant pressure and turmoil of public life. In short you want it to all go away.

Princess Di knew for some time about MI5's plot and had plenty of time to prepare for them. And what an amazing job she did.

Think about it, the official reports never conclusively proved that it was in fact her body. There are no DNA proofs, no conclusive dental matches and NO PREGNANCY WAS FOUND. This in spite of everyone around her knowing she was pregnant. Granted, to find and create such a good body double is difficult to comprehend, however this in no way alters the fact that it was done and done well.

So where did she go? Well it's all there for the looking, but I think I will respect her obvious desire for privacy and not lay it all out for those who are simply out for some irresponsible glory. Suffice to say she has all the privacy she desires.

And so SJ`s intelligentsia speaks, and again if you can`t win the argument resort to name calling and ridiculing.

Just can`t understand why you all are so desperate to defend this. It`s so obvious you never read any of the evidence nor saw the blue prints and schematics which I presented.

So next best thing make it personal and ridicule someone or are we going to claim trolling again because my view doesn`t fit in with your own beliefs.

Obviously we need to have an English lesson again, Conspiracy means 2 or more people concocting a story to distort the truth. So please point out how I was conspiring and with whom??? As I pointed out earlier I am for revising which happens to mean a person or persons wanting to change something to reflect better accuracy.

Anyway keep trolling away and applying your kindergarten logic to everything.

OK more kindergarten logic how the hell do you conclude I support the official theory even if I am not convinced. That`s hysterical.

So we need to give an alternative otherwise the original theory stands. No you are just so deluded, the original theory is so flawed it can never be true. So because I don`t give an alternative it automatically validates the theory I refute.

Going to have to remember that one

Mine was a legitimate question

Once again (we have been through this before) please advise the name/names you have been called. Also, as in the argument over global warming, I have not stated at all my own opinion on this subject yet you seem to believe my comments are because your view doesn't fit mine. How do you come to that conclusion? What exactly am I defending if I haven't even stated my own position? And please, I have not tried to 'win' any argument with you as I do not believe you have ever presented an argument coherent enough to actually win against.

I don't have any problem with you presenting your opinion on something. I do have a problem with you forcefully pushing your opinion as though it's fact when you have obviously no academic credentials whatsoever to make enough of an informed opinion to have such certainty. Oh by the way from what university did you get your degrees? It's important to know when there are websites like the following Online College Degree based on life experience where you can easily purchase degrees with no study whatsoever. And using words like 'sheeples' to describe the rest of us poor, uninformed, brainwashed masses I think falls under your description of "name calling and ridiculing".

Lets look at the author of the blue prints and schematics you presented. Jim Hoffman is a software engineer and is respected for his work on the visualisation of Costa's minimal surface. This guy is a scientist, no doubt about it, but his work on the 9/11 stuff seems to me to be a little out of his field of expertise. If he was an eminent scientist in the field of structural engineering then I would give much more credence to his assertions. Having had scientific training he certainly knows how to present something that appears very well researched but have his assertions been published in a credible publication other than on his own website? Has his assertions been peer reviewed by those actually working in the field of structural engineering? I think not...

So spacefrog if you were to say that you 'believe' he makes good points and invited us to read and make our own decisions I wouldn't have an issue. You don't do this though, you want us to read what you have and come back and completely agree with you. If we don't you carry on with comments like "I am so disturbed at the naivety displayed here and unwillingness to question anything that goes outside the realm of your supposed knowledge.". Believe me some of us are more than a little disturbed by some peoples willingness not to question everything and to believe anything outside the realms of their knowledge.

OK Spacefrog, I'll try to take you seriously from now on. (this will be difficult).
I don't have any degrees in logic, philosophy or whatever. I do however hold some engineering qualifications. I don't however agree totally with GN about the relevance of qualifications in this debate.
I have spent the 26 years working in commercial multistory buildings, old and new. I've been involved with the construction and maintenance, additions, repairs ect. I've worked in and on the roofs, under the floors in the shafts, been involved with the power supply, sub stations, generators, boiler plants, Air-con plants ect. These are my qualifications I feel are relevant here.

>Anyway this still doesn`t explain the foundations and the molten metal for weeks at the bottom of ground zero nor the sulphur found. And really it explains nothing about the fire crews and eyewitnesses that reported explosions and other anomalies over their 2 ways during the whole event. Obviously they are 911 nutters.<

Explosions and other anomalies ???

A farking big jet plane just hit a massive sky scraper in the middle of New York city! What do you consider to be the normal procedure for this sort of event?
I think you would get a lot more credibility on SJ's Spacefrog if you stopped thinking of yourself as an eagle of intelligence circling high about the moronic masses. Kindergarten taunts like sheeples wont help either.

Qualifications don't have to be an academic record Mantas. As in your case they can be a lifetime of practical experience. It's just degrees in sociology and philosophy don't in my book make someone able to comment with such authority on subjects like climate change and structural engineering.

I for instance am not actually trying to debate the engineering aspects of the WTC collapse because I personally know very little at all about strutural engineering. I will though debate the relevance of comments by people who claim to have superior knowledge in a field they have no specialised knowledge or experience in. I will welcome their opinions as long as they don't push them as truths that we lesser minds seem unable to grasp.

Lets get this straight.

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10) * 32 = 1760ft.

A total dwork without the simplest ability to do arithmetic, nor the nonce to try it, fine.

It took me all of 30 seconds to work this out. You find it nice to avoid the reality of arithmetic. It is easier to spend 3 years contriving a 104 Point conspiracy theory, and post total junk.

Spacefrog (not for the first time) has posted total bollox. Posting bollox here seems to be fine. Calling bollox for what it is the big CorrectSpeak No No.

Pathetic.

So do you want SJ to stop people posting 'bollox'?
But who defines that though?
Would that not cause an uproar?

Just put spacefrog on ignore, that will do the trick!

I find spacefrog quite amusing in an annoying way.

I like it as it is. Everybody gets to have an opinion on anything they want. They can post it too.

I'm being bagged via PM for some simple arithmetic.

Grow up. Nothing is more important than the (insert conspiracy here) caused 9/11.

Soubriquette now has two sessions of surgery lined up, +radiation +chemo.

Demonstrating willfull ignorance to the world is fine; your choice. Don't expect favours.

Being called a conspiracist would imply that I have personally conspired to hide the truth or distort it. Then really what you meant was conspiracy theorist which would imply that I support a theory that distorts or hides the truth. When all I am saying is REVISE.

OK GN contradicting yourself by telling me that I need to tell you what degrees to ascertain authority then telling me that just degrees in sociology and philosophy don`t give such authority. So which is it? And then practical life experience has more authority?plus the fact if you had read properly you would have noticed I stated politics and philosophy. Now how can logic not be a valid degree when our whole system of science in underpinned by it. I can follow the logic in the FEMA report or actually lack of it by crossreferencing with schematics and other peoples calculations. And really if you took a minute and cleared all prejudices from your mind you too would be able figure out that the FEMA, NIST and 9/11 commission reports are illogical sold as logic.

As for the ridiculing well I am being ridiculed for attacking a fallacy while you feel I am ridiculing you but if I did so it would be for defending the fallacy.

Also I thought it so transparent that you asked me on several occasions to disclose what degrees to provide again ridicule (just sociology/philosophy degrees) hence my reluctance to disclose.And I still say how are they relevant? One requires common sense first!

Oh just a diversion on your climate change, how come the planet has been cooling down since it peaked in 1998? Only in the last few years has the global warming crisis been fomented when in reality the planet is getting cooler.

ok back to 9/11, so when we look at Hegel`s dialectic which states
thesis + antithesis= synthesis( some people might have seen it simplified as problem reaction solution) it can be applied to provide motive. If one wants to invade a foreign country illegally like Iraq then how do you sell it to your own people, military and the world.

Foment crisis (We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order- David Rockefeller)

Reaction - point finger at saddam hussein blaming it on Iraq as well as outrageous claims on WMDs

Solution- Invade a sovereign country and depose a dictator you had installed from the start. Have a power base in the middle east and huge source of oil. Pas the patriot act!!!! and allow the president to claim another term indefinitely if another crisis were to unfold.In the ultimate democracy as we are told, how is that democratic?

Politics at it`s finest and the genius is hiding something in plain sight is so effective that who could possibly believe such an outrageous story to be true. Indeed someone who deems themselves intelligent would be branded a conspiracist nutter if they actually believed such an outrageous claim. There is safety in joining the herd mentality and those who don`t are vilified and ridiculed. Surely intelligence would require and open mind and to examine the facts to come to your conclusion and not to the prescribed conclusion.

Basically you are all being duped by modal logic, the way things are described e.g. Les Robertson stating the WTC could survive an impact of a fully laden 707. Now it was pointed out to me it is a slow flying 707. Ok now here is where you are duped, slow flying 707 at a 1000 feet is a strange claim. Such a heavy aircraft would need speed to maintain that course and altitude, slow flying still means at close to top speed for this to be scientifically possible. This is just one example in the thousands or more.

Now I understand that experts have concocted these beautifully worded documents to play on that and fool people into believing. Now if I say it`s understandable that most people were duped you will brand me an elitist again, but anyway these documents and many many other political documents are designed to do this. They hope that most people will never figure it out. Unfortunately with the internet this is becoming harder to suppress information and the speed at which this information is available it`s harder to sway public opinion with lies. These people who create these documents are banking on you being stupid and manipulating your opinion through the syndicated media brainwashing the masses 24/7. All I am asking is please show your intelligence as I know most of you aren`t stupid , open your eyes and don`t be easily lead.

Now the site I posted is a group of professors and other academics who have painstakingly tried to put everything into context and laid out nicely so everyone can attempt to understand without having to be an expert. The skeptics will say well they can lead you to a conclusion also and try to convince you the US govt is wrong. These people have no motive to hide anything remember and all they are trying to do is prove scientifically that the official conclusion is so bogus it is insulting to people with intelligence. The US govt has everything to lose as they used it to underpin an invasion of a sovereign country and breaking many international laws, it doesn`t require much imagination as to why this would be an issue.

Now if we go back to pure scientific facts and analyses of questions and events.

First this link is a scientific calculation of kerosene combustion and theoretical temperatures it could reach. I know from civil aviation records that aircraft kerosene has different grades with flashpoints from 24-38 c now this calculation uses 42c which is normal kerosene. Anyway from the calculations you can conclude the temperatures reached could never have warped the steel. Then 1975 fire in the WTC never caused these problems, nothing melted and the sprinkler system worked even FEMA says it would have failed.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/how-hot.htm

Next we have chapter 2 of the FEMA report analysed and critiqued.
Again this is simple and logical.

http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/wtc/WTC_ch2.htm

The whole site is a valuable resource to make your mind up without having an opinion forced down your throat. The reason why you see me as dismissive arrogant and whatever other words you want to attribute, is not because I think I am superior but because the self professed intelligent people vociferously defend a pack of lies that are insulting to everyone`s intelligence.


Just another little article about President Bush`s achievements during his 2 terms( a small excerpt maybe)Before you start branding this guy a conspiracist nutter, he is in the house of representatives and this is his list for impeaching Bush. He is a very brave person because how much support will he get but he believes it is right and he will go it alone if he has to. I admire that sentiment as he does not take the path of least resistance.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9293


And GN we can debate calmly about climate change(in the other thread), the artificial oil crisis which we are experiencing now, the comming food crisis that monsanto will help foment with it`s GMO crops. Please read about Kissingers 1974 National security council meorandum 200 on population control. He lays out oil crisis, food crisis, climate change as tools for curbing global population.

As for TJ OZ, well I don`t really worry about those as they aren`t so interesting really or relevant to our lives today. 9/11 is very relevant for all of us. If we think the ignorance is bliss argument is effective then think again. We are all going to have to deal with food, fuel and other crises that are fomented and arguing amongst each other is exactly what I would want to distract the populus if I were in control. Last thing you want is to unify them.

Actually maybe JFK is interesting as he refused to put operation northwoods ( declassified US military document) into action. He refused a false flag terror operation to hijack and crash planes into buildings blaming it on cubans so to start the invasion of cuba. It wasn`t put into action but it looks like the blue print for the 9/11 attacks. This document is declassified and available to read on the internet.

So you are implying that I am bagging soubriquet over PM. Your assumption as soubriquet puts it is bollox.
I don`t PM people nor will respond to PM other than the admins. I don`t need to hide and will defend my beliefs in public thanks.

And really if soubriquet looked my provided links , calculation of kerosene combustion and the schematics and blue prints for the WTC and go over the scientific facts then he can come back and explain to me why they are so bollox.

If you "ignore" a user, you don't get PMs from them.

No, I was doing no such thing.

I was simply pointing out that if anyone dislikes another member so much that it is driving them nutty, then they are able to "ignore" that user so that their posts do not appear.

Get it?

This is a lot like arguing with some religious nutter about evolution v creationism and being asked, if we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? It is ignorance dressed up as rational argument, but such ignorance as defies a sensible response.

An example for you Spacefrog is this statement -

Basically you are all being duped by modal logic, the way things are described e.g. Les Robertson stating the WTC could survive an impact of a fully laden 707. Now it was pointed out to me it is a slow flying 707. Ok now here is where you are duped, slow flying 707 at a 1000 feet is a strange claim. Such a heavy aircraft would need speed to maintain that course and altitude, slow flying still means at close to top speed for this to be scientifically possible. This is just one example in the thousands or more.

This is a complete mess of irrational nonsense absent of any real thought or consideration. You conclude that science dictates that because the plane is large and heavy, in order to keep the plane at the required altitude of 1,000 ft, it would need to be travelling close to its top speed. This is simply wrong, pure and simple. Stall speed 101: Planes have what is termed a "stall speed". This is the speed at which the plane ceases to generate enough lift to remain airborne. It is true that some very high performance, cutting edge type planes do have stall speeds close to their maximum speeds, but that is not the case with passenger jets. For each aircraft stall speeds do also vary according altitude and attitude of the aircraft (i.e. turning or flying at altitude will increase the stall speed) - largely because the less effective the plane's lift surfaces, the faster it needs to be travelling to maintain lift. At low altitude, stall speeds decrease because an aircraft wing becomes more effective at providing lift. The point being that a plane will continue to fly under control at all speeds (within reason) above the stall speed applicable to the given situation. Thus a pilot when flying slowly - as he/she would do in a situation when lost in zero visibility and concerned about possible flight hazards or low on fuel and wanting to conserve fuel, will fly slightly above the stall speed of his/her plane for that situation. At sea level the stall speed of a 707 is around 200 mph. The cruising speed for a 707 is roughly the same as a 767 being around the 530 mph mark. So, against your "scientifically possible" claim of the 707 travelling at near its top speed, we have one aircraft travelling at something like just over 200 mph and low on fuel (the design 707) against a plane travelling at 530 mph with considerably more fuel on board. - Not exactly comparing apples with apples, is it? Also, consider that the 707 had 4 small engines, where as the 767 has 2 much larger engines. These larger engines would have had a significantly larger impact on the WTC structure than the design 707 would have been expected to have.

Spacefrog - It is a pity you aren't able to engage in a discussion in a meaningful way and seem to be unable to put forward your case in a clear and thoughtful manner. You obviously enjoy engaging people on a variety of subjects. As in the above example, your inability to make a meaningful point undermines your entire position because if you are unable to grasp something as simple as stall speed v cruising speed v max speed, you're going to struggle with the more complex points of the discussion. There have been some great debates on this website over the years but they only work if the participants can really demonstrate a clear understanding of their case, including its strengths and weaknesses and, importantly, appreciate and respect the opposing views. Absent that the thread just disintegrates into the kind of thing we have here with you coming across all irrational and paranoid, and frankly, no one much cares for it.

As long as things don't get too nasty or personal and/or they go against our guidelines, it is not for us to move in on a thread and 'take action'.

As others have said, there is functionality on the Forums where any member can "ignore" any other member. Doing so will block out any messages from the "ignored" member and it this will also prevent those people from sending you Private Messages.

As was noted previously, please just keep this on the friendlier side of nasty. If things do get too much we appreciate people letting us know by using the "Notify" link on the bottom of each post. That gets our attention quickly.

Thanks.