Ok ... so this begs the question...

Is a society that demands accountability for professional negligence being responsible, or a Nanny state? Or is there a healthy midline somewhere?

Being kept accountable through negligence claims is a very different thing to governments making blanket rules to protect the masses.

Mitch made the point that he sometimes takes risks he probably shouldn't because the moment just gets to him and personally I think he has every right in the world to do that. I believe people have every right to take whatever risks they want (as long as they don't pose a great risk to others who are not involved). They die? Fine that's their choice.

When you pay someone though to take you beyond what your own experience and skills allow then you entrust that they have the skills and experience to make good decisions with your safety in mind. If something bad happens and it can be shown that they have acted negligently then I say sue their asses off. At least in places like Australia it doesn't matter what waivers you sign if you've paid money to someone to look after you and it can be found they've acted negligently then you can still sue.

It's my belief that in the two avie incidents I've mentioned there has been negligence on the part of the guiding companies by entering backcountry terrain on days of extreme avalanche danger.

GN , this diving operation was still operating when it happened the second time.

Mamabear, I'm sure some of us don't mind Nanny states. I don't like Big brother states though.

I do think Aussies get away with professional negligence more than other developed nations. In terms of criminal prosecution and civil compensation. Japan does have "manslaughter under occupational responsibility" and most likely be paying for the rest of your life in financial compensation. (This goes if you have an accident driving a car.)

The question I ask is, Is the level of what it called professional qualification too low, and how come it is accredited as such?

I agree with you both. Just putting the question out there.

Mine was a personal basis yes, if I was with a couple of my friends. However, in the company of other people and during your occupation it would be incredibly difficult for me to ever justify going out into terrain I know has a good chance of sliding. As my friends and I often go out, we know the terrain and conditions really well. I only go out into terrain that is questionable with people I trust and know are capable of rescuing me should something happen.

So yes Mamabear, I completely agree there is no way that one can justify doing that in a job when you are supposed to be the lifeline to other people.

Do the guides in Japan have any certifications. I know in Germany and Austria to be a guide you need to be certified through the bergfuehrer program. For what its worth it at least lets the client know there is some level of competency.

It seems that Japan needs to take ski guiding to the next level. How many of the so called guides have actually taken avy classes or for that matter guiding courses of any description. I have hired a couple of guides in Niseko only to be pretty disappointed. I thought it would be the right thing to do, support the local economy only to find their knowledge limited. Very different when hiring a guide in Chamonix. You know what your going to get every time.
The international UIAGM standard for guides needs to be adopted by the Japanese so the quality of the guides service remains high.

that might be true GN, but if you're dead, you can't sue anybody!! I agree that if you are paying money for a guide, you expect them to be an expert in that field, not just competent. They are your safety support and need to know what they are doing if the shit hits the fan

No word on what happened out of gate 5 the other day? I'd be interested to know where the slide actually happened. Any word from those in the know?

i heard the higashi one face, which to get to from gate 5 would involve a pretty long traverse unless the hiked up from Gate 5.
i liked the Avie report yesterday with the comments on not making ugly lines by traversing and follow the fall line.

I may have posted before but it's worth putting out again.

Niseko Avalanche report is available on the Niseko Now reports.

If you see Mr Shinya works at gate 1 in the AM you should thank him for the excellent report that gets put out.

Pretty hard to get on top of Higashi One ridge from gate 5 but you can traverse right across to just below and right of the cornice reasonably easily (at least on skis). I had a chat with one of the people involved in the avi and she said it occured just below to the right of the cornice where there is a convex slope that rolls over into a fairly steep gully. The guy who was most injured actually didn't get taken very far down but hit and got wedged around a tree. She told me she got taken down quite a long way through 3 bands of trees, at times going head over heels numerous times comlpletely out of control. Luckily though she only had glancing blows off a few trees. She was completely buried at times during the slide but ended up only partially buried at the bottom. All of them had gear and have have skied that areas many times previously.

There was a similar death today in UT. The man was only 3 ft below the surface but trauma knocked him out. Unfortunately it doesn't seem that his party was well prepared for an avalanche and he passed away after being buried for 40 mins.

Be careful people

Hi - this is my first visit to Japan and I will be skiing in Niseko and Risutsu. As a new visitor I would be very grateful for some advice as I have read this forum often and you guys are amazing. Can anybody please tell me if it is possible to rent safety equipment (transceiver, shovel, probe) on a daily basis in Niseko or do you have to be skiing with a guide or a particular company to get it? Ross3pin commented that he has been disappointed in some of the Niseko guides' experience so I wondered if anyone could suggest guiding companies with avalanche experienced guides?
Thanks so much for any advice

You can rent gear here and if you go on a guided trip it is usually provided. The question is though why do you need or want a guide? If you are skiing within the resort boundary there is no need at all. If you are skiing out through the gates there really isn't any need for a guide or gear. Some people prefer to have avi gear but personally I've been skiing here for 7 seasons and only ski off-piste and mostly out through the gates and off the peak. I've never carried avi gear and have never seen anyone get buried. I do take gear with me though when heading out into the true backcountry. So if you intend on heading out through the gates take avi gear if you want to but I'd argue it's not really needed. Only worth having the gear if with a group who also has it. If you are intending on heading out backcountry away from the resort a guide and gear is recommended.

GN, you never cease to amaze me with your blatent ignorance.

If this person is asking about renting gear, it means he/she doesn't have their own gear, which tells me they are probably not that experienced in the backcountry.

If you've been here for 7 years then you obviously know how quickly the weather can change here. If you don't know the area, you're inexperienced in the backcountry and you get yourself into a scary situation, what the hell are you going to do?

Not everybody needs a guide, you're absolutely right. People who are experienced, up for the challenge and are confident about the abilities of everyone in thier group should go for it. I'm the first person point out where the best runs are, I want everyone of every ability to have a great day.

What a guide does or should do is make you feel safe because he/she knows the area well, is educated in avalanche awareness, has first aid and self-rescue certifications, and most importantly has experience guiding and therefore can hopefully foresee problems before they happen. Plus they should also stoke you out by finding you the best snow for the day.

You mentioned somewhere that companies try to "scare" people into "believing" that they need a guide when really there is no real danger, yet you mention the serious avalanche that occured just past the gates at the same time. I have seen several natural and human triggered slides set off in the niseko backbowls so I have no idea of what you are talking about claiming it's safe.

Here's another story for you to think about GN.
Guided trip out the gates into the BACKCOUNTRY. Group approaches the next pitch they are about to ski. Guide points out the large glide crack about 50m below them and they discuss the route they will ski to avoid the 3m crack.
Skiers start going down one by one, guide in safe zone watching from above. Last skier about to start her first run, catches an edge and falls forward, skis behind her. Starts sliding slowly, everyone (including herself) thinking she has plenty of time get her skis in front of her on this low angle slope in time to stop and avoid falling in the crack...doesn't happen. She goes head first into the crack, guide races down to help. Gets to the top of the crack only to find all but one leg sticking out of the snow. The sluff that she brought down with her fell in the crack after she did. The snow had compacted around her and hardened up.
Guide does his job by taking charge, getting out his and other clients shovels, and five minutes later he's pulling out a skier gasping for breath. The guide saved that skiers life, and she definitely let him know that and thanked him profusely.

Point is that if they did not all have gear with them, it would have been almost impossible to have saved her.

Accidents happen but preventable accidents are usually due to ignorance.

And you always mention this "risk" as a form of freedom and maybe even what we all search for. Agreed, but can you show me one mountain guide or pro skier (who take risks all the time) that ski open bowls and backcountry without gear?

Why, being an educated and seasoned skier wouldn't you carry gear, I just don't get it?

I have an interested story to tell about Niseko 35 years ago. I could see GN will be chuckling about my antiquated experience but dig this.
There were no Gondola, no so many lifts, just single lifts at this time. Annupri and Hirafu was separated by 400m straight walk from the highest point on lifts on both sides. We went from Annupri to Hirafu no problems but on the way back we missed the last lift going to the highest point at the end of the day. According to gerende map, the 2 lifts were supposed to connect but the reality was that they were separated by a steep short run.
So we improvised. It wasn't a straight walk. We had to go around a bowl . We saw a surface avalanche start a little lower than we were. It started to snow like - white out we couldn't see where we were going. It was getting real cold. I guessed the direction. My mate was freaking out a bit.
We made it to Annupri and took a satisfying leak and enjoyed being last one down. When we got back, we had frostbitten hands.
My lesson. A mountain is still a mountain even when it has lifts and called a ski-jo.
I could see we could have been unlucky. If I were new to the place, I reckon I would hire a guide/instructor to show me the place. Especially so if I am on my own, at glacier areas, avalanche danger time.

BD, I think you may have misinterpreted GN a little bit. I was a bit confused by his post but re-read it and as he said he does wear gear and such in the "true backcountry"

This is the only part I would disagree on is what is "true backcountry". I say anything that isn't controlled is backcountry and should have gear. The reason is not only are you endangering yourself when you are in side country areas, but also a lot of other people. I would never ski something questionable if there was a chance other people below could be hurt as a result of my actions. Not to mention if ski patrol has to come get you they too become endangered at your foolishness.

Also just because you have never seen an avalanche does not give you any seniority over anyone else. Anyone who travels in the backcountry needs to be aware of the dangers of ANYTHING. It doesn't matter if you have skied it 100 times or 1. I skied a chute yesterday that I have done 20 times+ in different conditions. Yet yesterday a slide followed me out and while it wasn't enough to bury me, it was certainly enough to push me in a direction I didn't want to go (off 60 foot cliffs straight to rock = probably death) if I had gone slower or stopped in the chute...

I think Jynxx put it the best way. A mountain is still a mountain whether it has lifts on it or not. I have seen/heard of people getting killed in bounds too. As soon as you render the threat of an avalanche "improbable", you automatically make yourself that much less prepared. It doesn't hurt to be safe about things, but it certainly does to be ill-prepared.

BD the only avalanche deaths and most injuries I know of in this region over the last few years have all been on so called 'guided' tours. So forgive me if I don't have much faith in the quality of guiding in this area.

I have no problem with people wanting to take gear out through the gates but would argue that it is not 'needed'. If you are a very safety concious person then go for it. As I said I've been here 7 seasons and never had gear out of the gates and know plenty of others including many of my Japanese friends and other foreign locals who also don't use gear out of the gates. The vast bulk of people hiking the peak and skiing the bowls do not carry gear, much to your disgust BD I know. Yet despite all these crazy, irresponsible people, 1000's of them over the years going out through the gates there has not been one avalanche death on this mountain since they started using the gate system. Not one in over 8 years. I doubt any other high snowfall ski area in the world has such an incredibly good safety record and this is despite the fact that there are virtually no avalanche control measures by resort management.

I'm a big believer in the system that you take responsibility for yourself when you head out through the gates. I believe it is clearly stated at all gates that this is the case. The level of risk you are prepared to take should be up to you. I normally ski alone on the mountain and also do numerous solo backcountry trips so having gear is often pretty much useless anyway. When I go out through a gate I don't expect anyone else to be responsible for me and I don't feel responsible for anyone else.

The main thing that concerns me BD is that people like yourself would love to see access through the gates restricted to those who have avi gear only. You truly think it's irresponsible for someone like myself who's an experienced backcountry skier and who has gear and doesn't always use it. Whether I am irreponsible or not to me is beside the point. Once I'm outside of the resort boundary the real question is why on earth do you care what happens to people like me? Just let us be irresponsible if we want to be.

"She was completely buried at times during the slide but ended up only partially buried at the bottom". your quote on this thread.

You can do what you want to and be as irresponsible as you want but my only request is please don't lead other less "experienced" people down this path by claiming it's safe.

And yeah, seeing people flying down the backbowls in nothing but a pokemon or pooh bear suit not realizing the situation they are putting themselves in does bug me, but that's just me.